Michael Dettmers Interview
Posted by M. Finch on Forum VII - Feb 12, 2002.
A friend of mine had this chat with Michael Dettmers 14 months ago, and transcribed it.
Michael has recently re-read this, made some minor changes, and approved it - so here it is Questions to Michael Dettmers - 2 December 2000
Q: What is purposefully hidden from premies and why?
MD: Well, the stuff that I’ve talked about - his drinking and pot smoking, that was pretty prevalent in the 70’s and 80’s. I don't know if that’s still the case. And his affairs with various women, and his long-standing affair with Monica Lewis.
Q: Why would he want to hide these things?
MD: Oh, well he would basically take the view that it’s his private life, his private business but in fact it’s because it’s inconsistent with the stand he’s taken in public vis-à-vis the premies, i.e.
what it takes to lead a spiritual life or whatever, the ashrams for instance. He’s concerned that people will recognize that he’s acting in a very hypocritical manner.
Q: And what steps does he personally take to cover up information, or make sure that people don’t find out about it, which is rather the implication of what you’re saying?
MD: You create an inner circle. This is not unusual with many leaders, and you could certainly say that this applies to cults. You create an inner circle, and they somehow have to be sworn to secrecy about the inconsistencies, and that was what the whole “X-rating” scene was about. The belief system was that Maharaji can do anything because he’s the “Perfect Master.” He isn’t subject to the influences of the world. They presumably don’t have any effect on him as they do on everyone else. Hence, for supposedly our own benefit, he created the ashrams and all of those rules, but simultaneously he exempted himself because as the “Perfect Master” he’s above and beyond it – that’s what the Lotus is. So the rationale is, because most people wouldn’t
understand, it’s best to keep it (his lifestyle) a secret, and that’s what the X-rating ritual was designed to ensure.
Q: And that was something that Maharaji instituted personally was it?
MD: Yea.
Q: Can you just say again the extent to which you witnessed this drinking and how it would have affected him? Any comments about that?
MD: Yes, well I was X-rated by Maharaji’s pilot when he was touring Canada with his mother in ’74. At that time, I wasn’t part of Maharaji’s inner circle, but I was integral to organizing the tour and that included arrangements for Marolyn who was not known to be his girlfriend at that time. But they were at the beginning stages of a relationship. Maharaji was unhappy that the tour had been organized for him to stay at ashrams. So, one of the first things I was asked to do was
to see if we could organize his arrangements in hotels rather than in the ashrams, which I did.
This made it easier for Maharaji to have some time with Marolyn, but to do all this organizing and to get things in place, I was X-rated so I could be around Maharaji. That’s when I first learned about Maharaji’s drinking. So Maharaji’s been drinking ever since ‘74 in my personal knowledge and, as I learned, even before then, and throughout the seventies and throughout the eighties and perhaps even today, I don’t know.
Q: So there’s nothing wrong with moderate drinking? I don’t think that anybody could be accused of that. So what makes this immoderate in your opinion?
MD: Well, first of all there was something wrong with it because Maharaji made it very clear that drinking was not something that the ashram premies could do, so one could argue then, why would he perpetuate these rules if they weren’t good for everyone? That’s the hypocrisy issue - number one. Number two, my experience is that Maharaji didn’t drink moderately. Now, I don’t have experience of alcoholism either personally or in my family so I didn’t have any reference point at the time to know if it was moderate or not, but it just seemed like he could polish off five or six cognacs in an evening and get a little bit inebriated, not dead-drunk. And sometimes he would get rip-roaring drunk. In any case, he drank every single day.
Q: Over a period of how many years?
MD: All the time I knew him, which was fifteen years.
Q: So apart from the obvious hypocrisy that you mentioned was there any other way that you perceived that to be corrupt or bizarre? Did it affect him negatively in other words?
MD: Well, it’s corrupt, yes. When he gets drunk, he becomes very negative. He becomes abusive in the sense that he verbally trashes certain people, whoever happened to be on his negative list for that day or that period, or he could be very rude in public at restaurants, just the kind of behavior that you would perhaps see in a person who is drunk and not in control.
Q: Any particular examples of that sort of abusive behavior?
MD: Oh yes, I remember that during the San Ysidro conference when, at the end of one of the days, we went out to dinner with all the people that were participating as well as Will Schutz and his associate, I forget her name. Yea, we were having a general conversation and, I think I’ve pretty much reported how he found the whole thing very confronting. I remember at one point Will’s associate made some comment, and he made some kind of drunken remark like, 'Listen sister - let me tell you something!' I can’t remember exactly what he said but she got up from the table and said, 'And let me tell you something! Nobody talks to me like - listen sister!' She could recognize that it was very abusive the way he spoke to her, and he was clearly drunk.
And that’s a person who wasn’t a premie.
Q: What do you think Maharaji’s family make of it? Are they all just like premies?
MD: Maharaji’s family has grown up considerably since I was involved. When I was involved the kids were very young, early teens, now they’re adults in some cases. So with Marolyn, say...she went through a couple of phases. First there was the phase in which she was Durga Ji.
So she worshipped Maharaji and people worshipped her because she was declared the ''Durga,”
whatever the hell that means, right? And then that ended. I guess that ended around the end of the seventies or so.
My interpretation is that she started to get her life together. She went back to university to complete her degree at Pepperdine. I don’t know what Maharaji thought about that. At different times I think he tolerated it, at other times I don’t think he liked it. But that was a period during which she tried to develop her own life. But I didn’t have a lot of contact with her. Sometimes when we were on tour, a little bit, but most of the time she wasn’t on tour. The only thing I remember is that we used to get together, for an annual luncheon or something about a month before Maharaji’s birthday. She wanted to organize some kind of gift and she engaged me in that, but I didn’t have a whole lot of contact with her and very little with the kids. When Maharaji wasn’t on tour, I would meet with him in his office at the residence when I was around, maybe every other day or so. And then I would leave. So I had very little real exposure to the children, and certainly no dialogue or anything with them. So it’s not fair for me to say what they think or not.
Q: You said on the Forum 'I was a willing accomplice in a conspiracy of lies and hypocrisy for which I have no excuse'. What are the main lies and hypocrisies that you refer to and what, do you think, are the most serious of those in their consequences?
MD: Well, that was in response to Sir Dave’s question. You see, when I started talking about the drinking and the smoking pot, Sir Dave asked a very reasonable question which was, “How was all this kept a secret?” That’s when I talked about the “X-rating.” His next question was, “How do you feel about yourself being a perpetuator of that?” and that was my response. When I look back and realize that was what was going on, that’s all I can say that’s honest about it. At the time, we were all serving Maharaji, and we had some kind of story about why it was OK for him to do whatever he wanted to do and not OK for us, and this was just a way of protecting his privacy. So that was the rationale then. When I look back at the whole thing with a great deal of disgust, I have to say, of course, I was foolish to have ever been a part of something like that.
Q: Can you tell me how you perceive fear to be a dynamic around Maharaji and if he is intimidating? A lot of people have said he’s intimidating. How does fear play role around him and in his work, if this is the case?
MD: It’s a game in which he holds all the power. Obviously you’re only afraid if you feel you have something to lose and the people around Maharaji have many things to lose, given the world that they live in. One is their position. It’s more a question of 'What happens to me if I’m not in this position?' A lot of these people are not thinking about a life without Maharaji, and can’t envision one without Maharaji. So then, what happens to people that stay in the cult but who are no longer around the master? They always feel like they’ve blown it, like they’ve blown some opportunity. So there’s the fear of blowing the opportunity, the fear of displeasing
Maharaji, the fear of losing position, the fear of uncertainty ('what’s going to happen to me?
What am I going to become, what will people think?') The people around Maharaji are accorded a great deal of respect by premies who would like to be in that position, and think that these people around Maharaji have something to say, or some unique story - a darshan story or
whatever. And, 'what happens if I’m no longer in that position?' They see what happens to other people who get - quote 'dismissed'. They’re shunned. It’s a cult kind of behavior. Nobody wants to be shunned, of being ostracized from the community because the vortex of the community is Maharaji. So if you get outside of that vortex it feels as if you’re being shunned. That’s another
form of fear. Maharaji plays on that, he’s aware of that. I think he likes to keep people in a state of uncertainty. It even rubs off on the kids.
I remember one of the people who did the laundry at the residence was shattered because one of Maharaji’s kids said to her, 'You know, I could get you fired if I wanted to'. And the interesting thing is that the person who did the laundry actually knew that that was true. And so it’s a kind of attitude that exists. I don’t know if that answers the question?
Q: Yes, and also how would that fear come across say, in the context of Knowledge and the Master - in the philosophy rather than so much around the house or whatever?
MD: Maharaji used to talk all the time about how people were terrified of Shri Maharaji - that he was such an imposing figure. And I think even Maharaji used to fancy himself as being far more compassionate compared to the image he had of his own father who, I think, in stature was bigger than him, and who was very demanding. So sometimes I think Maharaji saw him as a kind of role model, as something that is needed in a leader, that you really have to be on top of people in a sense. And somehow, he felt that he wasn’t like that - he felt he was more
compassionate - and any time something happened to him that he didn’t like, then he would feel like he should have been more like Shri Maharaji. I don’t know if it’s the culture of all gurus, it could very well be, but it was certainly part of his own upbringing. Shri Maharaji was a very intimidating character.
Q: What are his good points and how do they balance with his faults? Because one would expect such a Master to be exemplary in kindness and consideration.
MD: The thing is that he was often very kind to me. He accorded me, in general, a great deal of respect and a great deal of autonomy. He certainly gave me gifts and he engaged with me in a more personal way than with a lot of people. I went out to dinner with him lots of times, we would sit together, share a meal, drink some wine. So I didn’t personally find him intimidating but I’m talking about a lot of people around the residence. I was part of the inner circle, but I also had my own autonomous realm. I wasn’t part of the residence situation. That’s where I saw a great deal of demeaning and intimidating behavior.
Q: How was Maharaji when he was stoned? Was he a different person?
MD: No, just like everyone else, laughing at jokes. Sometimes he’d put on - when we’d get stoned - not only “Frampton Comes Alive” but sometimes he’d put on some comics, and everybody would be howling with laughter. It was very funny. I mean, let’s face it, when you get stoned, things do look funny, and he would fully enjoy that.
Q: Apparently Shri Hans was a great smoker, a “Ganja” smoker. Charananad or somebody said that, I believe.
MD: I would certainly think so. Whenever I went to India, especially around Holi, we would all drink “Bhang” which is a kind of “Lassi” drink laced with a lot of hashish, or have these er...I forget what they’re called, but they were like - little cookies or something filled with hashish and, you’d get completely ripped.
Q: How do you think Maharaji could tell us in the ashram to live so austerely? What was his purpose? And did he care for us? Did he know about us? Did he know what was going on? We were told to give up everything.
MD: People liked to believe that Maharaji is all-knowing and that he knows what each person is thinking and feeling, and I think that’s just a pure projection. He hasn’t got a clue and doesn’t care – doesn’t really care that much about people, in my view, in general. But the ashrams were basically an extension of how things were done in India, and the general premise is that it’s a hierarchy. So, some people say that I lived very well. But, I was dealing with financial and legal affairs, and meeting with lots of lawyers and accountants and people who were not premies.
Sure, I didn’t do that out of an ashram. How could I do that kind of work out of an ashram? I had an office and a house in Miami, but I didn’t set the standard.
If you go to the ashram in India, you’ll see that, when Sampuranand was the National Organizer, he had his own house with his own cook and houseboy and whatnot. So he was accorded certain privileges, whether it’s drinking or smoking. In fact, he did smoke a lot and that’s why he had a couple of heart attacks and had to quit. In any case, he was in a position of responsibility and that’s the kind of privilege that came with it. So that same kind of status was accorded me in the West. So what I’m saying is that I didn’t set any standard here, this was how things were done.
Q: What I’m really driving at is, what was Maharaji’s attitude towards us? What did he really mean for us when he made such elaborate arrangements for us to be in ashrams? He said that if you were really truly dedicated you had to live in the ashram. What was that all about? Was it a mistake? Some people say that he said it was a mistake to do that.
MD: Well, I certainly think it was a mistake.
Q: What did he think?
MD: I don’t think he thought it was a mistake because he brought them back with a vengeance in 1976.
Q: But he’s done away with them now though.
MD: Yes, at first he thought it was a mistake to do away with them but then finally they went away because they simply couldn’t be sustained financially and all the responsibility that was implied. I’ve already talked about that.
Q: Did he really believe in the philosophy that he was prescribing? Was his heart in it or was it just a sort of 'Oh Well this is what happened in India and we’ll just do it' type decision? Did he care?
MD: Oh no, no. I relate more to his meetings with instructors - which is ultimately what the ashrams became. They became, not so much a place, but standards applied to people who were instructors, and even as late as ‘85 he was still very strict about being vegetarian and abstaining from sex. He was very strict about that and absolutely believed in it.
Q: But didn’t follow any of that himself?
MD: Oh no, of course not.
Q: Of course not?
MD: No, I’m saying “of course not” because that’s what I’ve been trying to make clear. As the Perfect Master, as Sat guru, he considered himself to be above and beyond all of that.
Q: You don’t think that he would have had any remorse for putting people through so much?
MD: None. I don’t believe that Maharaji has any remorse about anything. I think he feels like everything he’s doing, he’s doing out of … See, to get into the mindset of Maharaji, in my opinion, he truly believes that he is whatever he means by Perfect Master, the Sat guru, the one who is bringing enlightenment or whatever he thinks that Knowledge is. I think he believes that.
I don’t think he’s playing a game. And he’s adopted a certain leadership style that allows him to think that whatever he’s doing, it’s for people’s benefit. Now, I don’t know if that’s what he thinks today, but certainly when I was around that’s what he believed. The point I’m getting at is that he doesn’t have any remorse that I’ve ever seen. He always feels like people just don’t
I don’t think he’s playing a game. And he’s adopted a certain leadership style that allows him to think that whatever he’s doing, it’s for people’s benefit. Now, I don’t know if that’s what he thinks today, but certainly when I was around that’s what he believed. The point I’m getting at is that he doesn’t have any remorse that I’ve ever seen. He always feels like people just don’t