Bob: Well, that's a very interesting story. I don't know if we have time to go into it. Gary's nodding so I'll try and explain it very quickly. The story as it is told to the Divine Light Mission members is that when guru was going to go into his Maha Somadi - he doesn't just die, you see, he transcends into some other dimension - he had to pass on the mantle of spiritual authority that he bore.
He indicated that it was to be his younger son who was going to succeed him and become the Guru Maharaj Ji. What actually happened was that when the guru died, there were some very dubious circumstances surrounding his death, but that's another story as well.
His mother, the former guru's wife, who was known as Mataji and was part of the so-called Holy Family before they split apart, wanted to ascend the throne herself. At the father's funeral, at which time the new guru was supposed to be proclaimed, she was in a meeting with the governing body and some of the very influential devotees - the Mahatmas - arguing this point view.
She had one Mahatma who was very influential arguing on her behalf. Most of the governing body was resisting this, because they were saying that it flaunted the Hindu tradition that the 'perfect master' must in fact be a man. They couldn't go over to a 'holy mother' kind of belief structure when all along they had been operating in this 'perfect master' one.
While this was going on, some other younger and not quite so influential but nonetheless aggressive Mahatmas had a much closer relationship with the younger son. The one who was most instrumental was a Mahatma known as Mahatma Sampuranand. They seized upon the opportunity of absence while this argument was going on behind closed doors in another part of the Ashram.
They put the youngest child who was eight years old at the time - the Guru Maharaj Ji that we're talking about tonight - on the throne and crowned him. He was already accepted as the guru by the devotees by the time that they had finally come to an agreement in this other meeting that was taking place.
In this meeting, they had decided to put the eldest son on the throne, because that was in line with Hindu tradition that the eldest son always inherits from the father. This eldest son would then be under the control of the mother anyway, as he was about thirteen or fourteen at the time.
The mother finally agreed to that.
When they came out, they were really shocked to find that the youngest son was already sitting on the throne, wearing the crown and already accepted by the devotees. So they accepted this, but nonetheless there was the enmity that existed between the eldest son, who felt that his inheritance was robbed, and the younger son.
That dynamic eventually exploded in 1974. The mother then, at that point, when the youngest son was really defying her authority, said she'd back the eldest son now. But it was a bit late by that point.
Host: I think the same thing happened with Esau and Jacob.
Caller #10: When you did try and leave the group, did you have to go through de-programming? What happened there?
Bob: Actually, I had pretty much been de-programed in a sense, if you care to call it that, as a natural result of the experiences I had dealing with the guru myself. When I left, the main difficulty for me was leaving behind all those years of my life and all the work that I had put into it.
Losing the relationships that I had with all the people that were involved was difficult, as my life revolved around that group of people. When I left, I was an outcast. I had to start all over again materially, because I had given everything I owned and I left with nothing. I also had to start all over again in terms of building new relationships and so on.
Caller #10: I'm a member of the US ski team now and I'm also a former Moonie. I gave up my position in the US ski team many years ago to follow Reverend Moon. There is a great deal of similarity there.
Bob: No doubt there would be.
Caller #10: I didn't go through a de-program. Even afterwards, there were repercussions of meeting different people with the groups. It seemed that even if you did leave the group, there would still be someone knocking at your door trying to make sure that you got back in with it.
Bob: They didn't really do that with me. I had a different kind of situation, given that I was the President. I was in such a high position. I knew so much more, and they never pursued me. In fact, it was to the contrary; I was an outcast and they deliberately avoided me.
Caller #11: Regarding the PTL Club, and several other similar clubs that are devouring the nation right now, do you feel they are a threat? In the overall view of this nation, do you think they might be too powerful, too influential? For instance, the PTL Club now has its own network. I understand they are going to start doing their own news show. Do you think they might be able to influence everybody up to a point where it might really hurt this country?
[Editor's Note: The PTL ("Praise The Lord") Club was an organization headed by US televangelist Jim Baker, subsequently charged with fraud and imprisoned.]
Bob: I'm really not qualified to speak in terms of the capacity of the PTL to influence people.
Regarding what can hurt this country, I don't feel that we have that much to fear from any group organising itself in such a way that they are capable of having a voice in a mass society.
We have a diversity of opinion in this country; that's one of the principles that we cherish the most. It is through the competition of all these different ideas that the choice exists for each individual to make his decision.
On the other hand, there are practices of certain groups where once they have a person in their sway, they then systematically rob that person of any capacity to be able to leave the group. In fact, they try to deliberately hold that person and exploit them for economic gain.
Host: How do they try to rob them of an ability to leave? What kind of methods are you talking about?
Bob: First of all, they strip them of their financial independence. The way that this is done is to have them live in some kind of communal situation. Ultimately, if possible, they try to get them into one of their monastic type living situations where they are actually under vows of poverty.
Anything that they produce doesn't really belong to them, it belongs to the organisation.
Therefore they really haven't got any financial capacity on their own. All of their possessions have been turned over to the organisation. In addition to this, they also have the individual systematically sever their ties with anyone who doesn't believe as they believe. This includes family members, former friends and associates. An effort will be made to convert family members and former friends. After a certain point, they are just supposed to leave contact with these people altogether.
Over a period of time, what happens is that everything on a physical, emotional and
psychological level is really being controlled by the group. That gives a tremendous kind of ability to manipulate the individual.
Host: What about spiritual blackmail, in terms of salvation?
Bob: Well, that's part of it as well. When you have a person in this position, you condition them with fear. The fear is that if they leave, they will suffer some horrible fate. I think that, whether you're talking about the Hare Krishnas, the Moonies or the Divine Light Mission members, they believe that their belief is the truth. If they leave that, they are subject to all kinds of eternal
damnation.
I know that the Maharaji threatens his devotees at certain levels, once he gets them to the point where they've sacrificed everything. At this point they will have become initiators, which is the final degree of surrender. He threatens them with eternal damnation if they ever leave.
Caller #12: What did you turn to? (after you left the Divine Light Mission) What religion are you now?
Bob: I think I've had enough of religion for a while. I didn't really turn to anything.
Caller #12: OK, but you don't believe in anything now, any person or whatever?
Bob: No, I don't.
Caller #12: OK, so you don't believe in Jesus Christ?
Bob: I'm not a practising anything.
Host: OK, we're going to talk about the whole religious phenomenon of the believer. I'm a believer, there are other believers of various religions... that whole thing is rather interesting.
Caller #13: I have a question for your guest. I recently read an interview in 'Playboy' with Ted Patrick (He abducted and attempted to de-program cult members on behalf of concerned parents.
I think he was successfully sued for kidnapping). I'm curious about these methods he describes.
Does your guest agree that there is a certain kind of mind control involved in recruitment for the Divine Light Mission?
Bob: I didn't read that article, and I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'mind control' in the recruitment. I definitely think that there is a systematic process of thought reform that goes on.
The ultimate outcome of that thought reform process is that there is definitely a mind control that exists with the members.
Caller #13: In his interview, Mr Patrick seems to be of the opinion that the Krishnas, the Divine Light Mission, the Scientologists and others like them are using a great deal of mind control in order not only to recruit, but after recruitment to place these people in a sort of controlled state.
This is so that they will not only turn over their earnings, but will also continue to serve as robots. I was just curious whether you felt that was happening.
Bob: Oh yes, I definitely do.
Caller #13: So doesn't that make this sort of a subversive activity?
Bob M.: If you mean subverting the individual, yes. I don't think that with the Divine Light Mission there are any larger goals other than to subvert whatever individuals they can, and then hold them in this state of servitude for the perpetuation of the group. As far as the subversive nature of it is concerned, yes, it does subvert the individual's ego. The individuals will say, yes, I appreciate that, I like that; in fact I'm in bliss because of that.
Caller #14: I have a question for Bob. Earlier in the program, you said that you had received a
lot of calls recently from people who have had loved ones they were concerned about who were premies. I just wondered what you told them when they called.
Bob M.: Well, it depended. A lot of the conversations were very individually oriented around what they could do in their particular situation. If I can generalise a bit about it, a lot of these parents just really needed someone to talk to to help them understand what was going on with their child or family member. In fact, in one case it was a daughter worried about her father.